**official politics and religion thread**

[spooky]

EDIT PAUL
As the Mac vs PC turned into a Religion and Politics thread its now split off to keep the two separate, even though they have originated from one source, this will allow the topics to be discussed in a better way.

Originally Posted by ooda

It's not just George Bush that has me not liking the Republicans, but also what the party stands for.

what is it about a push towards apparent socialism you find appealing? what is it about diversity expressing individual and community values you dont like? the republican philosophy has nothing to do with religion, or hordeing money for the rich, though the media tends to paint a different picture.

Originally Posted by ooda

I would have thought that when you do a comparison, percentage wise (only fair way), you would find that more Mac users would be for the Democrats rather than the Republicans. I am generalizing here, but Mac users would tend to be better educated, and in lines of work that do not typically have Republicans in them.

i would agree, i believe more dems have them than republicans, but thats not based on facts or studies, but i think its likely true. but i disagree about the education. most wealthy americans, CEOs and businessmen are well educated, and tend to be republican. as are the upper ranked college grads, the middle ranks of college grads(anything less than say top 5%) tend to be dems. the drop outs tend to be republican again. most teachers, professors, and artistic types, liberal arts, touchy feeley disciplines also tend to be democrats. kind of a strange bell curve.

Originally Posted by ooda

Just look at the votes in the last election. Educated people tend to be more for the Democrats, while those who are not (The South) tend to vote for the Republicans?

im going to flat out disagree. actual voters tend to be 90% stupid, both sides. i think the intelligence and education really has little to do with who votes for who. the bulk of the black votes, who vote 90%+ down dem party lines, that carry the dems in most elections, are in the south, and statistically, are not as well educated as whites, or voting republicans. so i think we can all but eliminate education and intelligence, i see the pattern you are refering to, but i think its just happenstance, and other factors are involved.

Originally Posted by ooda

Plus, who doesn't agree with what Jon Stewart is saying?

i enjoy his show, i really hope nobody gets any actual political information or adopt any views based on his show, though, as that would actually be stupid. but it is in my top ten fav shows to watch.

[ooda]

Originally Posted by spooky

good points on all except this, iTunes is horrible. why is it a mystery how the ranking works? why are there extra steps to see top100 in a catagory, but its so easy to get to featured crap? who decides whats featured? why the redundancy putting crap in so many places, the library doesnt quite make the grade. why is it so slow to respond when i hit buttons, is it using less resources or something? why does it want to take over all my media when i install it? why are the videos they peddle so crappy, just to save size? are they only intended for the video ipod, if so, why shun the rest of the market? why do i have to log in to get the ipod software updates? why does it take so long to load? why do those banners appear, and when i go to click on one, it changes to something else, and now im lookin at nascar crap?

also, when the ipod is storing mp3s on its hard drive(this may be a seperate issue) why does it make a million folders and randomly put the mp3s in them, in no discernable order? i like using my ipod as a portable hard drive, it makes it annoying...and why is it also a pain to share my mp3s with a mac user if my ipod is pc based?

I know that there is supposed to be some sort of method to the madness about the rankings, and there being some articles on it, though maybe Paul remembers some of them. Same with the featured stuff, as they have a fairly strict guideline of who will be featured.

With the quality of the videos, it's mainly so that it doesn't take up too much resources suppling them, and they primarily look the best on the video iPod, but I also suspect that it's to keep the studios happy so that there is still a reason to buy dvds.

With the sharing of the music off the iPod with Macs and likewise, there are some good freeware programs for the Mac that makes the whole thing a hell of a lot easier. If you have a look on ilounge.com you should find something good.

I can't really comment on how smoothly and quickly iTunes works on Windows, but on my housemates computer it works quickly, even though she is listening to the songs over the network. Someone else can give a better opinion than I can.

Seems like they made it mandatory to sign up to download iPod updates only recently, so that's a bit of a downer.

[ooda]

Sigh, I guess it's time to put that unit in politics I did last semester to work.

Originally Posted by spooky

what is it about a push towards apparent socialism you find appealing? what is it about diversity expressing individual and community values you dont like? the republican philosophy has nothing to do with religion, or hordeing money for the rich, though the media tends to paint a different picture.

As I'm not in the US, I don't really see as even a view of the Republicans as I would like. Though I am not supporting of the stance that the current party is taking. Mind you, as a principle, I do agree with you, republicanism is a good idea. From memory I think that the main thing about it is that the politicians are ultimately ruled by the consent of the people. That is a good thing.

Be careful when you say that supporting socialism is a bad thing. As an ideal, just like republicanism, it's a good thing. The main points about socialism is that community, equality and common ownership are not that bad. Mind you, the last point about common ownership doesn't really float my boat, but it's not that bad an ideal. My supports leans more towards the social democracy arm of socialism.

I guess that if we were going to start a grudge match using ideologies, then republicanism seems to be a good choice. Just from my point of view, the republican party doesn't really practice what it should.

Please, if there is something about the Republican party that I'm missing, then please point it out. It's good to have a balanced opinion, so all news is good news.

Also, you could also probably blame Al Franken for some of my views.

Originally Posted by spooky

i would agree, i believe more dems have them than republicans, but thats not based on facts or studies, but i think its likely true. but i disagree about the education. most wealthy americans, CEOs and businessmen are well educated, and tend to be republican. as are the upper ranked college grads, the middle ranks of college grads(anything less than say top 5%) tend to be dems. the drop outs tend to be republican again. most teachers, professors, and artistic types, liberal arts, touchy feeley disciplines also tend to be democrats. kind of a strange bell curve.

The Republican party of late does tend to cater more to the well-off in society, so I guess it was kind of naive of me to say that more of the educated people would be democrats. What I was going off was when you look at the states that votes for the republicans verses the states that voted for the democrats. But now I'm getting in muddy water as I'm starting to equate education with IQ.

I don't disagree with your argument on this point, as the people that you have identified have the most to gain from the republican party being in power.

Originally Posted by spooky

im going to flat out disagree. actual voters tend to be 90% stupid, both sides. i think the intelligence and education really has little to do with who votes for who. the bulk of the black votes, who vote 90%+ down dem party lines, that carry the dems in most elections, are in the south, and statistically, are not as well educated as whites, or voting republicans. so i think we can all but eliminate education and intelligence, i see the pattern you are refering to, but i think its just happenstance, and other factors are involved.

I'm not well-versed on who voted for who in the election, so what I was saying was just some of the things that had stuck in my head. Like I said above, I started to equate IQ with education, which kind of dissolved my argument. What we're getting more into over here is an issue of SES, but yeah, like you said, we can eliminate intelligence and education from the argument.

Originally Posted by spooky

i enjoy his show, i really hope nobody gets any actual political information or adopt any views based on his show, though, as that would actually be stupid. but it is in my top ten fav shows to watch.

The show is good to watch if you already have a decent idea about what's going on already. Though I do remember hearing somewhere that more young people tend to take what is said there verbatim, and using him as their primary source of information.


I have to say spooky, that it amazes me how versatile a person you are. Not only are you good on the radio, but you're also good with your hands, and contrary to what people might think, you've actually got worthwhile things to say.

Damn it, now I have a man-crush.

[spooky]

Originally Posted by ooda

Be careful when you say that supporting socialism is a bad thing.

ive said before i vote democratic on most local issues, so it does have its place, but i dont think it should be a federal level philosophy. i can also say communism is a great and noble idea, it just falls flat on any scale bigger than a village. the basic problem is painting needs with a wide brush. in many parts of the world, where the country is primarily one ethnic group and one religion, its a very valid and appropriate approach, but america is very diverse, though in the media, movies, it seems mostly white. ive heard projections that say whites will be a minority as early as 20 years from now. so its just a better approach to empower the local areas as much as possible, and if i had my way, the federal government would only be involved with keeping up the interstate, the military, and national economic policy, states would handle everything else.

Originally Posted by ooda

Just from my point of view, the republican party doesn't really practice what it should.

i agree, religion has adopted it as their own. im not a fan of religion involved in politics.

Originally Posted by ooda

Also, you could also probably blame Al Franken for some of my views.

Franken? hes too much of a sensationalist, he contorts and omits facts, he needs to go take a logic class and treat his show like hes debating someone. he tends to butcher his own arguements with fallacies. i guess he has a radio show to sell though, and if its working, i wouldnt change a thing if i were in his shoes. at least he doesnt hide the fact he is editorializing, like alot of news networks and papers do.

but his show isnt for political lightweights, and i applaud you for paying attention.

Originally Posted by ooda

(the daily show)The show is good to watch if you already have a decent idea about what's going on already. Though I do remember hearing somewhere that more young people tend to take what is said there verbatim, and using him as their primary source of information.

sadly, its where most 20somethings get all their politics here in the US. still, i love the show.

Originally Posted by ooda

I have to say spooky, that it amazes me how versatile a person you are. Not only are you good on the radio, but you're also good with your hands, and contrary to what people might think, you've actually got worthwhile things to say.

you get 80 or so years to live, as an athiest, thats not alot of time to take it all in, so i soak up as much as i can about everything. maybe i will get it right, maybe i wont. im gonna try though. i dont get why everyone doesnt.

/shrug

[devilishone]

I like the Daily Show cos its not affraid to poke fun at anyone in politics, its also where I get most of my information about american politics but I don't take it as the truth because its a humorous show.

I like Al Franken, he's funny, Rush Limbaugh isn't ;])

Penn Jillette started his radio show and it's funny, sorta, at least Penn thinks it is, he's always laughing at himself. Bullshit! though is a good show (starting again 22nd March I believe) and I like the way he and Teller think.

Religion in bullshit, being born a Jew raised in a secular Christian multicultral country (lovely oxymorons there) gives me a good grounding in what's bullshit and religion really is bullshit. I'm a scientist, or at least I like to think so, and most scientists are either Agnostic (atheism lite) or Atheists, why? Cos you can't empirically study "GOD". The Faithful give the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" line, which is total bullshit, show me the sub atomic particle that is GOD, or the EM wave that is GOD or even anything that you can quantify as GOD and i'll say "well fuck me there is a god".

Anyhoo, that's my extra 2 pence on the subject for this round ;])

[ooda]

Originally Posted by spooky

ive said before i vote democratic on most local issues, so it does have its place, but i dont think it should be a federal level philosophy. i can also say communism is a great and noble idea, it just falls flat on any scale bigger than a village. the basic problem is painting needs with a wide brush. in many parts of the world, where the country is primarily one ethnic group and one religion, its a very valid and appropriate approach, but america is very diverse, though in the media, movies, it seems mostly white. ive heard projections that say whites will be a minority as early as 20 years from now. so its just a better approach to empower the local areas as much as possible, and if i had my way, the federal government would only be involved with keeping up the interstate, the military, and national economic policy, states would handle everything else.

Yeah, the thing is that every political ideology can be made out to be the better than the rest. That said, I do enjoy the freedom that us in the Western world enjoy. I heard that with the whites in the US becoming the minority it's been made out to be a bigger issue than it is. Though I guess you can't underestimate the South/Central Americans flooding in the country, and the birthrates of blacks and latinos in the low SES bracket. That and mixed couples which would sway the scales a tad.

It would be nice if the state could handle all, as in quite a few cases the local mayors really do seem to get drunk with power.

Originally Posted by spooky

i agree, religion has adopted it as their own. im not a fan of religion involved in politics.

I guess that as long as Bush is in power, and we swear on a stack of bibles, nothing much will be happening in this arena. Although it would be nice if they lightened their stance on abortions.

Originally Posted by spooky

Franken? hes too much of a sensationalist, he contorts and omits facts, he needs to go take a logic class and treat his show like hes debating someone. he tends to butcher his own arguements with fallacies. i guess he has a radio show to sell though, and if its working, i wouldnt change a thing if i were in his shoes. at least he doesnt hide the fact he is editorializing, like alot of news networks and papers do.

but his show isnt for political lightweights, and i applaud you for paying attention.

Yeah, he's a sensationalist, but I do have to admit that it makes for good radio. It's worth taking what he says with a grain of salt, but at least it gets you thinking.

Originally Posted by spooky

sadly, its where most 20somethings get all their politics here in the US. still, i love the show.

I guess that at least their getting somewhat of an educated view.

Originally Posted by spooky

you get 80 or so years to live, as an athiest, thats not alot of time to take it all in, so i soak up as much as i can about everything. maybe i will get it right, maybe i wont. im gonna try though. i dont get why everyone doesnt.

/shrug

At least it will make your conversations interesting.

[ooda]

Originally Posted by devilishone

I like the Daily Show cos its not affraid to poke fun at anyone in politics, its also where I get most of my information about american politics but I don't take it as the truth because its a humorous show.

I like Al Franken, he's funny, Rush Limbaugh isn't ;])

Penn Jillette started his radio show and it's funny, sorta, at least Penn thinks it is, he's always laughing at himself. Bullshit! though is a good show (starting again 22nd March I believe) and I like the way he and Teller think.

Religion in bullshit, being born a Jew raised in a secular Christian multicultral country (lovely oxymorons there) gives me a good grounding in what's bullshit and religion really is bullshit. I'm a scientist, or at least I like to think so, and most scientists are either Agnostic (atheism lite) or Atheists, why? Cos you can't empirically study "GOD". The Faithful give the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" line, which is total bullshit, show me the sub atomic particle that is GOD, or the EM wave that is GOD or even anything that you can quantify as GOD and i'll say "well fuck me there is a god".

Anyhoo, that's my extra 2 pence on the subject for this round ;])

God and religion is a farce, but at least it can give some people the help they need to get through life. Especially since I got into science (okay, a social science, but my point still holds) it's hard to believe in something that has no basis to it. Not to mention that it pisses Christians off when you tell them than in a way they are kind of like Jews (I mean, they do worship the "King of the Jews").

The Daily Show is good, but it's the whole package that makes it good, especially the segments. Not the interviews mind you, but I guess you can't have everything.

As far as comedy and politics is concerned, I really have to recommend Real Time with Bill Maher. It's a more intense than The Daily Show, but it really is fun and informative to watch, and not as completely one sided as The Daily Show.

Damn, I really am turning into an old man.

[Paul]

As the Mac vs PC turned into a Religion and Politics thread its now split off to keep the two separate, even though they have originated from one source, this will allow the topics to be discussed in a better way.

[Noahfingway]

Flame war on!

[Paul]

I hope not, [yoda]moderation nightmare started I have, yes...[/yoda]