3521: Vessel for Love - Part 2 w/ Tom Delgado

[Sparrow]

if anything Will removed Jada’s agency to handle it herself. i’m not buying this big, bad protector line.

[Mermaid]

Originally Posted by littlp

You are clearly saying the slap was justified. And I think Wanda and Lonis opinions on this are especially relevant being that they are black women comics, who have had to deal with bullshit from men in their career being both women and black, I would argue their opinions matter a lot in this context. They also worked on this awards show, which was supposed to be a major change and celebration of black voices. Will took that away with his violence.

And the slap, it feels insulting to call it a slap like it was some minor hit. Will swing his hand back like he was in the damn MLB.

What I don’t see you wanting to talk about is how it affected the other black actors, producers etc. how it took away from their moment. They put a ton of work and deserved to be able to have their moment. And it was overshadowed by his violence.

You aren’t going to convince us that Will’s violence is ok. And you aren’t going to scare Chemda or Keith away or myself from talking about by suggesting we are ignorant racists.

Why do you even listen to the show?

This whole thing is really simple-Will’s reaction to a stupid and bad joke was violent and unacceptable and Chris didn’t deserve it. You can go ahead and continue to be on your self righteous pedestal-but you aren’t going to get what you want out of it-unless you are just being a troll, which a part of me suspects.


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Did Wanda and Loni comment on the joke? Did you go seek out the opinions of black women comics who disagreed with them? [Cause the "some black people are okay with being called nigger and are opposed to violent protest, therefore I will continue to say nigger and clutch my pearls at violent protests" angle is played out]

It was a slap. Everything else is extra. Arm movements do not equal applied force. Chris did not stumble or even really rub his cheek. Let's not be extra. If Will wanted to seriously injure Chris, he could have. That isn't what happened.

The argument could also be made that Will put in a lot of work to produce and act in an Oscar nominated movie that also involved the work of a lot of black professional, showed up for the award ceremony just for his wife to be publicly insulted in an auditorium of their peers during what what supposed to be the highlight of his career.

Why do you think I am trying to scare people by point out racism? What about calling something racist is scary?

Should I just shut up when I notice that two people who ordinarily are able to talk about topics with empathy and depth have a blindspot? One that involves the group I am a part of?

Sure, a black woman asking that the nuance of black women's experiences be a part of the discussion is a troll. Cause what else would it be.

[shoebootie]

This also morphed into a lot of hypotheticals and what-ifs and what-about.

Inventing narratives for each side, reasons, side stories.

The facts are the facts though - Will slapped someone, on live TV at a black tie event, and that is not alright in polite society but Chris handled it with more grace than most people ever would in his shoes!

Just as Will's actions don't represent an entire race, Wanda and Loni's opinions don't have to be a mouthpiece for all black women.

[Mermaid]

The Twitter thread I posted earlier questioned whether we should be trying to protect "polite society".

We deride celebrity culture and the fakeness that surrounds it. We pretend to hate it. But still want to protect it.

Even outside of celebrity culture. Social norms suck and are harmful for a lot of people. Why are we trying to protect them? And is the only alternative we can think of "the wild west"?

Do we really think if you just have a nice sit-down with the racist asshole down the street all will be good and we'll live happily in proximity to each other? He'll stop doing whatever bullshit he was doing cause you were so nice? That's not how any of this works and people are fed up and got some Schadenfreude from this situation.

[And yes Chris is the asshole here who has a long history of making black women, their hair and particularly Jada the butt of his jokes] Sure his cheek shouldn't have stung for a minute and im sure it was embarrassing. But you can't blame the people who have had to deal with his bullshit and what it promotes for years to not really care about it. I'm sure he'll go on making jokes about how he is a "black person" but not a "nigga" to white audiences while those perceived as "niggas" will continue to reap the (often violent) negative outcomes of that type of thinking becoming the norm. But jokes are just jokes and comedians love to cling to that until tomorrow where they'll describe themselves as the mouthpiece of the common man to the elites or whatever.

[littlp]

Originally Posted by shoebootie

This also morphed into a lot of hypotheticals and what-ifs and what-about.

Inventing narratives for each side, reasons, side stories.

The facts are the facts though - Will slapped someone, on live TV at a black tie event, and that is not alright in polite society but Chris handled it with more grace than most people ever would in his shoes!

Just as Will's actions don't represent an entire race, Wanda and Loni's opinions don't have to be a mouthpiece for all black women.

Good point, my use of that was ignorant and didn’t contribute to the point I was trying to make.


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[nordcharonmir]

Originally Posted by Mermaid

The Twitter thread I posted earlier questioned whether we should be trying to protect "polite society".

Is your life better or worse by living in a modern society? Do you think your life would be better living in a pre -British common law society? Think this through a little further.

Originally Posted by Mermaid

We deride celebrity culture and the fakeness that surrounds it. We pretend to hate it. But still want to protect it.

Some people don't pretend and don't put these people on a "pedal stool" because they are not worth it. Fame is no longer the odor of noteworthy deed it is like so much else of the degenerate society and degenerated to a corrupted wretched version of itself.

Originally Posted by Mermaid

Even outside of celebrity culture. Social norms suck and are harmful for a lot of people. Why are we trying to protect them? And is the only alternative we can think of "the wild west"?

Do we really think if you just have a nice sit-down with the racist asshole down the street all will be good and we'll live happily in proximity to each other? He'll stop doing whatever bullshit he was doing cause you were so nice? That's not how any of this works and people are fed up and got some Schadenfreude from this situation.

[And yes Chris is the asshole here who has a long history of making black women, their hair and particularly Jada the butt of his jokes] Sure his cheek shouldn't have stung for a minute and im sure it was embarrassing. But you can't blame the people who have had to deal with his bullshit and what it promotes for years to not really care about it. I'm sure he'll go on making jokes about how he is a "black person" but not a "nigga" to white audiences while those perceived as "niggas" will continue to reap the (often violent) negative outcomes of that type of thinking becoming the norm. But jokes are just jokes and comedians love to cling to that until tomorrow where they'll describe themselves as the mouthpiece of the common man to the elites or whatever.

No idea what this is supposed to communicate. Because racist exist somewhere in the world and Chris makes jokes you personally don't like...therefore lil Willie can smack people? Such as therefore thee Iraq?

Originally Posted by Sparrow

if anything Will removed Jada’s agency to handle it herself. i’m not buying this big, bad protector line.

Thinking through this event against better judgement since it has been in the cultural spotlight got me thinking this through in light of their relationship even further...almost has a feel of a women with so much contempt for her weak bitch of a husband she has settled for that she positioned him to lash out like this to destroy himself and possibly make herself available for a real man again without having to leave a "good enough" mate and father of one of her children. I know this is some real deep level stuff but given her track record I think some deep lizard brain level shit may be at work here.

He's such a weak bitch that she hates the weakness so much he had to show something "strong" which in fact was even weaker bitchier shit but to everyone's surprise including Jada's he was embraced by the other weak bitches that make up Hollywood instead of properly shunned like a functional tribe/culture.

Originally Posted by Mermaid

Imagine how much bullshit and discrimination black women and girls had to go through for a literal federal law to be needed to protect against hair discrimination in workplaces and schools.

The shit runs deep. Back to slavery and yall wanna yada yada yada it. Fuck that.

You do know that law wasn't "needed" it was redundant and just political grandstanding and virtue signalling, right?

Think about why chattle slavery is wrong...all the elements (non-hair joke related). Think about whether there is any overlap with controlling speech and actions through violence. See if you think retributive physical violence for mouth sounds (in jest or otherwise) is a problem.


As a recap to Mermaid my question as to whether you played out your position to it's logical end was perfectly highlighted in this show when the lawyer tried to use the Will Smith defense. Are you on the murderer's side now, otherwise your argument is inconsistent and still untenable.