2131: Family Man

[Keith]

Fucking your child at any age should you get life. I want death, but we can meet in the middle.

Oh me; so controversial.

Okay, have a great day.

[Eric M]

I agree with you. I was talking about brother sister cousin stuff.

[Keith]

Oh, that old gag.

No one is older or manipulative when it comes to brother and sister at all...

And fuck you for acting like we were talking about cousins.

[Eric M]

I brought up siblings and cousins because chemda pointed out that it's pretty different as far as the abuse factor goes. I wasn't trying to be an asshole I was just curious because I thought you were talking about incest as a general term. Its a fair point that someone is usually older but I would think that it should be less of a punishment when it's not a parent fucking a child. Anyway, I will quit poking the bear.

[lilgoodlad]

MILF = Mom I'd Like to Fuck
not Mom, I'd Like to Fuck
Important distinction

[Mandias]

I've been avoiding my urge to jump into this discussion of such an important and touchy subject, but I don't think I can stay out of it any longer. I have to admit my own tendencies and practices are probably going to disgust Keith, but I have to come clean and admit this publicly right here in front of everyone....

I use the grocery checkout bar.

But seriously, I consider it a favor to the cashier (that whole "we're working together" extends to the employee too), to make it easy and obvious for them where my stuff ends. Also, the bar serves the purpose of stopping the automatic conveyor belt while you are carrying out your transaction. Some cashiers will pick up a bar and put it on the belt solely for the purpose of stopping it from moving.


But, as for incest...

First, I want to make it clear that I am not defending incest. Of course, just from my saying that, Keith will assume that I am in fact defending incest. There's really no winning on that. Oh wells.

I have spent time thinking about this subject because I taught sex education classes to young people for 7 or 8 years, and the curriculum was based on being informed and aware of the realities of the world so that they could form their own opinions and boundaries before being in situations where they might not be able to make a reasoned decision. Also, I am currently exploring kink communities, where most taboo subjects are at least discussed openly (although even in many kink communities, discussion of incest and bestiality are often frowned upon). And finally, I have lived among Juggalos, so I clearly have some tolerance for weird sex.

Also, to be honest, I haven't read any of the last few days threads to see what other people have been saying, so I'm sorry if I am duplicating things.

What irks me is that the it keeps coming off as the question of "If an adult man and woman who never even knew each other until she was 18 years old meet, and they happen to be biologically father and daughter, is it WRONG for them to have sex?" and then some people say, "Yeah, I guess that's okay," and Keith says "WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S OKAY FOR PARENTS TO FUCK THEIR KIDS?"

A little history: Human aversion to incest is a societal evolutionary development because there is a progressively increasing likelihood of genetic based health problems, as can be found in the most famous incestuous people: the ruling families of Europe and Asia. There are even measurably higher chances of birth defects and health problems from a first time, first-degree (brother-sister/parent-child) pregnancy. The taboo is evolutionary because, as asexual reproduction evolved into sexual (two-party) reproduction, organisms that didn't differentiate between external and closely related mates were less likely to succeed, as defined by long life and greater reproduction rates. We feel that incest is squicky because organisms that were squicked out by incest had more kids than ones that weren't.

So, yeah, I have a little bit of a problem being legislated by evolutionary squicky feelings, which is how anti-incest laws are similar to anti-homosexuality laws: Homosexuality is clearly not an evolutionary success strategy (it leads to zero kids), but it is also clearly an innate and natural aspect of a number of species, and most people tend to agree that homosexuality should not be illegal.

If you only have sex for reproduction, then there are clearly health reasons to stay away from anyone with shared genetics, but if you happen to enjoy recreational sex, that is not what we're talking about.

So, what is the difference if sex is just for recreation? As I said, Keith seems to keep getting completely blindsided by his squick about it, which is understandable. But the real issue, as far as I am concerned, is the same issue which needs to be addressed in any sexual relationship: Is there a power imbalance? That's where things get fucked up. Sexual harassment, rape, molestation, domestic and child abuse... those are all the result of unequitable relationships. Even people into BDSM have equitable relationships... it's just about the voluntary surrender of power, after negotiation and trust and consent has been established.

The thought of incest immediately brings up inequitable relationships, which are bad in and off themselves . Under no circumstances is it okay for an adult to have adult sexual relationships with children, because there is no way that the relationship is fair to the young person, and the young person has no capability of being able to adequately consent to what is going on (even though they may believe that they are capable). Sexual harassment leverages employment over sexual autonomy. Cat-calling on the street is unequitable because it is an involuntary relationship forced upon someone.

"Incest" brings to mind things that are clearly and demonstrably fucked up and wrong, because there is almost certainly some aspect of extortion, abuse, or control, with psychologically devastating consequences. But I can't really find a problem with two adults fucking, who meet as adults, having never had any familial relationship with each other, and are able to relate to each other as adults.

What about brothers having sex with each other? What about sisters having sex with each other? I used to watch Happy Days as a very young kid, and the Fonz would talk about dating twin sisters. I didn't exactly use these words, but I processed that in my head at 8 years old as "Holy shit. This show is talking about a guy fucking twin sisters at the same time. That must mean that the sisters are having sex with each other. That's kind of disgusting and hot."

Which brings me to another, and completely different, aspect of incest: fantasy. I feel like most of the KATG audience understands that there are people who are pedophiles, but do not in any way want to be pedophiles. Most of them live their lives suffering what they usually experience as a shameful affliction, and never act on any of their desires in the real world. The same is true of people who have inexplicable but undeniable fetishes for bestiality, incest, and other things. No one knows why something hooks them sexually, and there is often shame and self-hatred when people are turned on by something that society finds repulsive. I think that is why people could be getting upset about "incest shaming." Even if most people find the concept of incest instantly disgusting, exclaiming how disgusting it is is like telling a closeted gay person that being gay is disgusting.

[Irobeth]

Originally Posted by Mandias

"Incest" brings to mind things that are clearly and demonstrably fucked up and wrong, because there is almost certainly some aspect of extortion, abuse, or control, with psychologically devastating consequences. But I can't really find a problem with two adults fucking, who meet as adults, having never had any familial relationship with each other, and are able to relate to each other as adults.

I think this is concisely Chemda's point of view and mine, thank you for putting it in words.

In addition to this, though; if the two discover they are genetically related they owe it to their prospective children to be tested for genetic disorders. The better (ethical?) thing to do is not risk having children if their children will be at risk for any such disorders.

And then you go on to talking shit about the pope's decisions? I don't agree with the church at all but I think it is interesting that Keith shits on incest as a lifestyle choice (outside of the abuse approach) so much considering how much he shat on organized religions for hating homosexuals.

What makes "I'm telling you what's right" and "it is/should be illegal" okay in the case of incest and not of homosexuality? What makes you a better authority on morals than anyone else?

It wasn't until 2003 that the Supreme Court struck down homosexual sex being illegal nation-wide. If that has room to change, this does too. Nobody should have the right to legislate what two consenting adults do with eachother in private, whether or not anyone agrees with it morally.

[Sparrow]

since you brought it up and since you have time on your hands, could you masturbate to fucking our super hot adult child? check and see. for science. report back.

[Keith]

I already fucked you as my sister.

And reporting back: Yes. You were watching and you were very pleased.

[Sparrow]

thank you